Nazarene Roundtable

A forum for discussion, reflection, and calls to action. Everyone is welcome.

Monday, July 31, 2006

Teaching the Articles of Faith

A few weeks ago, I asked my father (the pastor of our church) if I could do some lessons on the Nazarene Articles of Faith for the church on Wednesday nights. This is part of the "grassroots movement..." I'm lucky to have a local church that is willing to put me up in front of them to talk! He said that would be fine. He and my mother are out of town this week, so in his absence he has asked me to begin the Articles of Faith lessons this coming Wednesday. Before he left to go out of town, he asked me about the lessons. He said, "So your gonna teach on Wednesday night, right? I then asked if I could have more than one Wednesday night to teach and he responded, "How long will it take to teach the Articles?" My response was this, "A year or more, dad, but I guess I will settle for two Wednesday nights." I love my father, but it is difficult sometimes to come to common ground with him.

So I teach the Articles of Faith on Wednesday night. By the grace of God, I might get through the Trinity.

With the Spirit's help,
Joseph

Saturday, July 29, 2006

Sanctifying Worship...

Just want to clue everyone in to another new Nazarene blog that, after months of deliberation and conversation, I've finally set up. In no way do I want to draw attention away from Nazarene Roundtable, and I intend to continue to be active here as well as there, but my idea for this new blog was to create a forum focussed on the worship practice(s) and prospects in the Church of the Nazarene, with particular interest in the situation of the local church(es).

Anyway, here is my description, copied from the site:

"Sacramental Nazarenes is an online discussion space for members of the Church of the Nazarene who share a deep concern for the worship of our churches. We are devoted to thinking about the past, present and future of our liturgical tradition(s) and sacramental life and desire to explore together what it means to worship in Spirit and in Truth."

Like Nazarene Roundtable, this site is open to all who associate themselves (although not necessarily by membership) with the Church of the Nazarene. Comments are open to all, but in addition, I will gladly give member status and full posting privileges to anyone who expresses interest in contributing...the more the merrier. Just shoot me an email if you want me to add you.

So help me spread the word - I'm especially keen to involve Nazarene pastors and lay ministers who are either doing new (to us - old, liturgically) and daring things in their local churches - you know, things like using the lectionary or responding to scripture readings with "Thanks be to God," or (golly!) weekly or in any way more regular than usual communion services - or those who simply desire for something more and are open to what such "ancient-future" traditions might have to offer.

Friday, July 28, 2006

Random Ruminations: Zack

Four things: 1)evidently someone hit a nerve 2)Someone else I was talking to who is ordained, said that he heard the same thing that headquarters told me (about being Rev. once you get your district license) and that supposedly it is true 3)I know, or can at least think of, at least a dozen or so people who would be all for starting a new church/denomination (Reformed Church of the Nazarene?) Non-denoms do it all the time and most of them are uneducated crackpots, so why not us? 4)I accidentally washed my "licensed minister ID card" and it disintegrated into a million pieces, so does this mean a)i am not licensed anymore or b)that was irrelevant anyone and everybody is already a "Rev."
Just some random ruminations,
Zack
p.s. From now on please refer to me as the "Very Reverend"

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Welcome!

Dear friends,
My cousin Joseph and I began talking about turning our conversation into a blog to ease the communication and then Brannon suggested the same thing and it was a done deal.

I have taken the liberty of copying all of our e.mails into individual posts (along with Joseph's direct replies as comments on those posts). If you find that you would like ANYTHING edited, just let me know. I hope to be able to grant you access to do this in the future, but if anything is pressing just contact me directly.

Grace and Peace.

Charlie's First Reply

by Charlie Green

In late reply to everyone's comments, I give my two cents (if its even worth as much). Coming from (and going back to) a small, backwoods, uneducated, and extremely a "do not" church, I find this conversation most stimulating for a person excitied about going back and telling everyone what they learned while they were away, but I feel as though they are not ready for it. The only problem with this is the "do not" attitude small churches (as I have observed) seem to have. By this I mean the church is focused mainly on what not to do to be a Christian rather than on what to do. I find Levi's examination of the order of the Articles important in that the article on sin is mentioned before the sacraments, the Church, sanctification, and even grace! No wonder our church is hell bent on legalism instead of practice. The rules tell us ho to screw up before we even know where to turn if we do. But upon further examination of the order of the articles, the Trinity, being first really offers all the answers if one has taken a Spaulding systematic. The peace, love, and unity of the Trinity offers a perfect example for the Church. So from this understanding of the articles we need to be educated in order to get a full understanding of what they mean. Is this part of the political agenda of the Nazarene demonination. Do they want a bunch of followers and a few leaders? Do they want people to question what they do? Do they want the lowly layperson to become a Pastor, DS, or heaven forbid, a GS? Of course not. Keep the people at the bottom of the heirarchy at the bottom and the people at the top, at the top.

This is one of the reasons why as a denomation we downplay education in order to promote sanctification through the Holy Spirit. Being too educated causes us to think and debug our faith instead of embrace it blindfoldedly (a word?) led by faith in the Holy Spirit. God can work in any way he sees fit. He is who he is, right? Personally, in order to really do something, I like to understand it. I really enjoyed learning about God and the Church during my course of study at Trevecca. I know it is kinda one sided in terms of viewpoints but I have friends with whom I can converse and hear other opinions, sometimes helpful, sometime confusing. But I believe as a denomination we need to teaching our doctrines (articles) to those who want to join the church or even to those who are already members of the local congregation. It is my hope that I can return home humble and eager to teach the youth and adults (but I will primarily be working with the youth) the importance of digging and finding that small nugget, possibly even spec of dust buried deep within our tradition not just as a denomination, but as a Church. And YES, Joseph, ecumenism has a large part to play in this search. I recently have had a friend who converted to Catholocism with whom I am eager to talk to on a regular basis about Christianity, the Church, and our world. Many people in my church would probably deem it a heretical call him a Christian. I look forward to continuing this email with all of you and thanks for reading my ramblings.

Prayfully yours,
Charlie

Brannon's Second Reply

by Brannon Hancock

Hey guys –
[Apologies in advance for this novel-length treatise.] I’ve replied to some of you individually already but not all of you collectively, so let me just toss in one thing for consideration – I’d love to know what each of you think, so please respond if you feel so inclined. What began as a discussion about the Nazarene Church’s problematic understanding of ministry, both pre- and post-ordination, has quite rightly moved on to a general discussion about how we formulate (poorly) and convey (unfathomably poorly) our doctrine, both in the Manual and in our local churches. All of you obviously have much first-hand experience with the lack of education in our local churches, the “people in the pews” as I often say – which is not meant to create a false distinction between pastors/scholars/students on one hand and laity on the other, but rather to specify the local church situation, where the people in the pews are very often include pastors, scholars and students. And it is evident to me that each of you who have responded have developed (or are developing) a burden for rectifying this “lack” due to your first-hand experience.

Joseph, who has made it his personal crusade to “eradicate ignorance in the Church” (and of course we should all lend our support to this cause!), has on several occasions in this dialogue brought up the need for a Catechism that would be implemented, taught and (most importantly) required prior to membership (except in the case of transfers, I’d assume). No doubt this is needed, and no doubt the one that Hoskins et al wrote for Nashville First Church a few years back would be a fantastic place to start – thankfully my wife when through that class w/ Hoskins one summer when she was attending NFC, so I do have a copy of it somewhere (not here in Scotland unfortunately; probably in TN in a box somewhere).

Also something to think about is what I sense is an increase in the number of infant baptisms in the Nazarene Church…something we allow for – and indeed, if the Manual’s “order” is any indication (as a couple of you wish to suggest), it would seem to be the primary or even preferred method, considering that the “liturgy” (stop laughing!) for infant baptism appears first, then infant “dedication.” Of course, upon close examination you will notice that the services are nearly identical, and the infant-baptismal liturgy pretty much sucks – the authors have taken great pains to insure that the language communicates that this does NOT make the child a Christian or equal their salvation. But still – I keep hearing about pastors who have begun to make use of this suppressed (or merely overlooked) option and some who even actively encourage baptism over dedication rather than passively offering to do whatever the parents wish. This kind of trend, however slight at the present time, gives me hope for our denomination. However, as I have asked one of my Nazarene pastor friends who insists on baptizing babies as often as possible (and flinging water from the basin onto the congregation and imploring them to “remember your baptism!” in good Eastern Orthodox style), what do we do with babies we’ve baptized in a denomination that does not catechize and confirm? I’d like to think all those baby-baptizing pastors will have a chance to put those children through Catechism in their early teenage years (or whenever) and then, perhaps in the context of a baptismal service, “confirm” them – or, in the revised language of the Episcopal and Presbyterian churches in Scotland, allow them to “reaffirm their baptismal vows” before the church. But given the turn-over of pastors AND laity in our churches (as one of you pointed out), I doubt this will happen in very many cases. So all this is to say: yes, we need a Catechism – and not just one that a local church designs and implements, but one written and published by the general church for general use. And yes we need to use it – in fact, probably at first we need to put EVERYBODY through it, from the newest of new Nazarenes to the 90 year old saintly charter members of some of our congregations – for as probably all of you have come to realize in one way or another, even those elderly life-long Nazarenes often have a very limited understanding of who we are or what we believe as a denomination.

This digression is really just to make a point, and it is this about which I’d like to get some feedback from you guys: it seems to me that if we really want to see changes happen in our churches, we must begin with practice, not theory. Now, I know I seem to be creating a (false) distinction between theory and practice, between docta and doxa, which is of course a big faux pas, but what I mean is, the important thing is not merely that we reformulate our Articles of Faith, or write and publish a Nazarene Catechism, or for God’s sake improve our baptismal liturgy (infant or otherwise), but that we incrementally begin to change our practices, local church by local church. We will not eradicate ignorance by coming up with a highly-refined way of teaching Nazarenes what it means to be Nazarene, because I’m afraid this just won’t cut across the board, considering precisely the sorts of things several of you have pointed out in this discussion: the lack of theological education of even our pastors not to mention our laity! Denomination-wide renewal is called for, and I hope sooner rather than later, but I firmly believe that the way to eradicate ignorance in the local church is to begin by transforming our practices; by reflecting on what we do when we gather together as a church on Sundays (and other times) and beginning to change the ways we worship our God and the ways we teach our faith, which happens in worship – songs, sermons, prayers, sacraments, “liturgy”/order of service – as well as in Sunday School classes and even in our casual fellowship.

At the end of the day, I don’t believe in a dichotomy between theory and practice – as I remember Hoskins once saying, Christians are people who say what they mean and mean what they say, or put otherwise, who live how they believe and believe how they live. We have to keep these things together in all ways and at all times: putting pen to paper and writing a Catechism isn’t enough, we’ve got to teach it to people! But my concern would be that if we don’t “pave the way” for such teaching by slowly started to change the way we worship from a less ego-centric, individualistic model to one that emphasizes the community and hence reasserts the Church as central to the Christian life, the “imposition” of Catechetical training as a prerequisite to membership would be met with much resistance. Of course, via our Catechism we would want to begin teaching members that the Church and her teaching is necessary our Christian life, even to our sanctification…but think about your average Nazarene, or even your average Nazarene pastor (I’m thinking of my father right now, who pastors a church of 200 in Nashville) – do you think they’d accept simply being taught something that in some ways clashes with what they have always thought and believed? My guess is that they would not be nearly as open to this as they would to being gradually reshaped through worship and practice (i.e. the whole of the liturgy: word and sacrament – which is another false dichotomy, of course, but that’s for another discussion) into people who WOULD eventually be open to this kind of teaching. But this would take patience on “our” part (I mean, people like us, with similar convictions) and grace on everybody’s part and the kind of redemptive work that only the Holy Spirit can undertake.

In short and in sum, I am convinced that if we want to see the Nazarene Church begin to become the kind of church it certainly has the potential to be, and to reconnect with its greater historic tradition, we must begin by transforming the way we worship. The kind of “revival” our churches always seem so desperate for will only come as a side-effect of liturgical renewal.

By the by, would any of you be interested in taking this conversation and future conversations that might be along these lines into the blogosphere? I’m thinking of something along the lines of young, bright, reflective Nazarenes, the “next generation” of leaders so to speak, who are interested in things like doctrinal improvement, liturgical transformation, sacramental renewal, an increased commitment to the education of both clergy and laity, the challenges of working toward this end within the local church setting, and the like. I’ve come across recently developed websites for “emergent/emerging Nazarenes” (see http://www.emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/ and http://www.emergingnazarenes.com/ if you’re interested) which are interesting and seem to hit on some of these sorts of things, but I personally remain unconvinced by the language of “emergence” and would rather avoid any form of the word “emerge” or “radical”…an online space to share these kinds of ideas, to post and comment freely (all would be given posting privileges), blah blah blah, you know the sort of thing I’m taking about…any takers?

In the peace of Christ,
Brannon

Levi's Second Reply

by Levi Hamilton

Friends,

I agree with Wade that the Nazarenes are still young. Much like American ambivolence as people are amazed that anybody not an American would hate us, but we as Americans are also young. Typically, as the obnoxiuos rich teenager of world commerce, we stick our nose where we shouldn't, and then make a mess of things that don't really have that much to do with us, as well as all the lying that goes on...no wonder we aren't taken seriously, but as the rich young man always buys dinner, everybody will be our friend to our face (while they are hungry at least). The Nazarenes were started by some highschool grads, not Ivy League Alumni, and so I guess we should be patient as to their understanding of educational importance and ecclesial history.
I also agree that the Manual is lacking. After doing an analysis of the grammer in class one can quickly see that the problems in language and the lack of certain important material cause the manual to be only satisfactory. Once again this can be attributed to youth and ignorance. The articles of faith go from the Trinity (which at least they start here) and skips God the Father to go on to Jesus and then the Holy Spirit. One could argue that God the Father is identified under the Article of the Trinity, but this does not adequately portray that God is three in one. Next is scripture, which I don't know if it should follow God, maybe after Church, but that doesn't come until after Sanctification. The sacraments are rightly located after Church, but these three are all located after sin. Why is sin so high up on the heirarchy? Seems that our focus might be on sin rather than even say Sanctification which isn't for 5 more articles. Anyway, you can see that order could cause some confusion for non-believers, luckily we don't have catechism, so there is no confusion yet (I'm being sarcastic). The fundamentalist also came in and change much of the language around, especially in the Article of Scripture. Plenary inspiration and inerrant were added in the 50's I believe...not 100% on that. No we can explain it away, but the language is still risky since it has been borrowed from fundamentalism and the reform traditions.
My biggest problem with the Manual is the political structure. The church's power structure seems to be formulated using capitalism as a model. The church that brings in more money increases the power of the district. The district that brings in more money increases the amount of votes/power you can bring to General Assembly. We call ourselves an international church but until the last several years all the international churchs had no representation even though they outnumber us...we have more money in the US and thus more power. With the explosion of numbers and thus more money, the international church has become a presence that the domestic church has to respect. We are an international church, yet we have never had a GS from another country, and we only recently voted a female as a GS...correct me if I am wrong, but I thought women in ministry was one of the foundations of Nazarendom. Things are going to become very interesting when the American Nazarene church truly does become international.

Cud for thought,
Levi

Levi's First Reply

by Levi Hamilton

Friends,
I understand this problem. I myself began the steps toward ordination, but before I had decided whether deaconship or eldership was the path I should take, it apparently was assumed that I was on the elder track. Since then I realized, I am not a preacher by calling, and so should be on the deacon track. I asked a minister whether I should have them change it or not, and his advice was, "I wouldn't worry about it." This bothers me, especially since I know several ministers whom come out of the woodwork and claim God has called them to preach. I wondered why we have specific titles for each specific call to ministry, deacon-education, elder-preaching, deaconess-women stuff (believe me, my wife has problems with that one), etc. Then I realized perhaps its because the sermon is the focal point of the worship service.
When you attend the episcopal or catholic liturgy the homily is only about 10 minutes long. I know the pulpit is the center of Nazarene worship, but I don't hear many good preachers anymore (Or, ministers who preach Christ/Salvation/Holiness). Plus, why burden a minister who isn't as good homiletically to each week write a masterful sermon, and in some cases two sermons. (Or, like my home church just write a long one and preach till 10 after 12 then finish the rest of it in the evening service)
Anyways, that was a tangent, if a preacher is called to preaching, he shouldn't automatically recieve the highest ordination in the church, further, the system seems problematic because it distributes power through a heirarchy which seems to be in contradiction with scripture, I digress. I agree with Joseph that the language used is confusing and misleading. Although, I must confess my doubts for the future of the Naz church. I have seen some of the under table politics that goes on at the upper end of the heirarchy. I am disappointed because I feel like after ordination it simply becomes a game of politics (and sometimes before). I'd rather be busy with ministry, worrying about my parishioners rather than worrying about recongnizing if someone higher up is sitting in the pews and that I had better shake their hand. Sorry this is so long, just haven't been able to vent about this in a while! I hope this encourages discussion rather than depression or doubt. It sounds like its time for a Pow Wow with the big dogs!

Grace and Peace,
Levi

Brannon's First Reply

by Brannon Hancock

Hi Joseph:

That's pretty funny. Just a few thoughts, and feel free to share them with whomever might be interested (I hate it when other people "reply to all" so I refuse to do so in this case). First of all, as I understand it, Darlene Friend is just flat wrong: one is not a "Reverend" until one is ordained an elder in the Church of the Nazarene. She seems to be erroneously applying the title "Rev." probably simply out of ignorance or misunderstanding, or the ignorance or misunderstanding of those senior to her on the district. Also, while I agree that our allowing yet-to-be-ordained ministers to administer the sacraments is highly problematic, it shouldn't be surprising given our low view of the sacraments in both theology and practice. "Sacramental Nazarenes" like us will do well to remember that, by and large, the Church of the Nazarene does not understand and never has understood what we believe about the Sacraments of Baptism and Eucharist/Lord's Supper, nor why we undertake such practices outside of the fact that they are (arguably) "biblical" and that Jesus made reference to them somewhere in the NT – which I'm actually not convinced is a good reason to do anything, but that is another matter. All this is to say, of course we allow licensed but not-yet-ordained ministers to administer the sacraments, and for a number of reasons: one, which you have already mentioned, is pastoral need; another is for the training that the duration of one's licensed ministry is to accomplish prior to becoming an ordained elder; another is our commitment to the Protestant Principle, our orientation as a "priesthood of all believers", which is to say, our decisively egalitarian polity – the logic would be, if only "ordained elders" can administer the sacraments, then haven't we just made our pastors into priests and so gone and undone the entire Reformation? (An exaggeration for sure, but I'm sure a part of the reasoning). Now, saying that a licensed minister must be supervised or overseen in his sacramental administration is quite a different thing than saying who can and can't administer the sacraments; a licensed minister can administer the sacraments with the permission and blessing of an ordained elder, which would be "overseeing" or "supervising" without necessarily being present in body (note that many other denominations do this, too). Interestingly, if you read the Manual of the Church of the Nazarene closely, I think you will find (if I recall correctly) that the only real "vocation" to which Nazarene elders are ordained is the preaching of the gospel – sacraments, in keeping with our tradition, are really by the by. So this all to say: while those of us who have glimpsed a larger vision should work hard toward overcoming these lousy traditions and instituting a more comprehensively sacramental way of "being Nazarene," really, none of this should be surprising to us.

Finally, we must keep in mind the way the CoNaz goes about the process of ordination. Granted, I don't fully agree with this process and prefer the way many other churches go about it (I will outline this in a moment and describe what I think is the ideal), but still, we have a long-standing tradition of doing things the way we do them. And that just happens to be: 1) get your local pastor to give you a local license and "oversee" your ministry at your local church in a sort of mentoring role; 2) with the support of your local pastor, approach the district about a district license, which usually denotes the beginning of one's pursuit of ordained ministry (whether pastoral or deaconal); 3) after 2 years of full-time local church ministry as a licensed minister (or more if one's ministry isn't full time), and after completing the course of study and receiving the endorsement of the district credentials board, you may be accepted for ordination by the district, as overseen by a G.S., which is the closest thing we have to the laying on of hands by the bishop in something like "apostolic succession". Our requirement of 2 (or more) years of full-time ministry before one is ordained is something like what the Episcopal (and other) churches do with "curacy", but for them, this comes AFTER ordination. Prior to ordination (and I admit I don't fully understand the process but have picked up quite a bit), the process is very similar to ours as well, consisting of approaching one's local church about what one feels is a calling; the church – not the priest only but perhaps the vestry (church board) or some committee participates in the "discernment" process before referring a potential ordinand to the bishop; the bishop and his council discern further one's fit-ness for ministry before one is invited to become an ordinand, which then involves taking up both local church ministerial duties and academic study; and after sufficient time has passed and studies have been completed, one is ordained as a priest in the Church of God. It is significant to note that, for example, an Episcopal priest can never "lose" his ordination – once he is made an elder/priest in the church, he will be so forever, even though his licensure may be revoked (preventing him from serving as a local minister, administering the sacraments, etc) – because ordination is a sacrament, it is something GOD does, not the church/district, and so, like baptism, it cannot be undone. So, a newly-ordained priest becomes a "curate" which is kind of an assistant priest usually working under a more experienced priest in a local parish, and serves as a curate for 2-3 years before being able to be considered for taking a parish of one's own. Of course, many pursue ordination with no intention of serving as a full-time or "senior" pastor/priest – some desire only to assist, or to be deacons, or to just do "supply" work, or whatever. But the point is, because these other churches take the sacramental life of the church (of which preaching is a part but certainly not the whole – anyone can deliver the homily in Episcopal, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, etc, churches, but only a priest can consecrate the Eucharist or baptize a new Christian), over which the ordained minister presides, more seriously than we do, it follows that we would have a different way of doing things. It's not without its problems, and it's not necessary right, but there are legitimate reasons behind it. I'd prefer something more like what the Anglicans/Episcopalians do, but it would take time for us to move toward that kind of ideal.

Just my thoughts. And as I wrestle with my own calling and whether or not the Lord wills that to involve ordained ministry, it is very useful for me to think through some of these things and figure out what I think, where I stand, and why or why not I might want to pursue ordination in a particular ecclesial tradition – that's the BIG question for me at the moment: should I approach the Nazarene church about ordaining me to a pastoral vocation that, for Nazarenes, does not consist of what I feel particularly called to? In think in many ways you are right: the ordination itself is, for Nazarenes, IN PRACTICE if not in doctrine/principle, simply a piece of paper for the wall, a feather in one's cap, an extra little bit of credibility. Thanks for provoking these thoughts by sending this email. I look forward to talking about such things with you here on British soil sometime in the near future.

In peace,
Brannon

The Beginning

The initial e.mail:

My friend Zack forwarded me a three email conversation he had with a worker in Kansas City. I went to an ordination service last night, so this email really sparked my interest. Read it, comment, don't comment, scrutinize, laugh, whatever, I don't care. I just thought I would attempt to share the conversation.

Grace and Peace to All,
Joseph A. Wood

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: joseph wood
To: Zack Hunt

What's funny to me is the fact that a licensed minister can be a senior pastor of a local church who administers the sacraments, preaches, and is the spiritual leader of a congregation. Ordination is not required when the Church needs pastors, although one is not charged and commissioned to do these things until ordination.

Ironically, I was in an ordination service for the East Tennessee District Assembly last night. Four were ordained as elders, and one as Deacon. The funny thing is the fact that all four Elder candidates are full-time senior pastors and have been for at least one year. How does this happen? The charge of the Licensed minister is basically, do everything you need to do to be ordained, which includes ministry, but ministry as an associate. Also, the licensed minister may administer the sacraments, BUT only under the SUPERVISION of an ordained minister. So does this mean that the licensed minister/senior pastor has to call an ordained minister to come to every Eucharist and every Baptism? Of course not! These licensed minister in the senior pastoral role administers the sacraments, whether there be an ordained elder present or not. So who is supervising the licensed minister?

Is it the fact that we need pastors on the District and this allows for licensed ministers to take on the role, or does it mean that the difference in licensed and ordained is a mere certificate on the wall? This alone downplays the ordination service for me. Knowing that on Sunday, the former licensed minister will enter the pulpit as he did last Sunday, only now he has been prayed for by the host of East Tennessee Elders and his majesty, the General Superintendent. Is his ministry now valid? Is his previous ministry marked as invalid, or incomplete? Most certainly not!!! Our Church needs to either uphold what has been mandated by the manual, or rewrite what has been superfluously written. Why add, in almost every by-law of the manual, "by recommendation and approval of the District Superintendent and the District Advisory Board, this (insert law) can be bypassed"(paraphrased by me, obviously). In other words, most laws in our Church Manual can be underwritten and bypassed by the approval of the District Superintendent and the District Advisory Board.

What does this say of our Denomination? Are we that much in need of pastors that we have to place licensed ministers in senior pastoral roles even before ordination? How many senior pastors in the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Catholic, Methodist, or even Baptist churches are not ordained? Although, I'm not a big fan of the guidelines for Baptist ordination, that church still ordains, charges, and confers the orders of ministerial ordination to every pastor.

I know I am speaking as a licensed, not ordained, minister, but these are my observations. I also know that I am a candidate for Ordained Deacon and not Elder, but these observations apply more to the elder than to the Deacon.

Thoughts? Concerns?

Grace and Peace,
Rev. Joseph A. Wood :-)

---------- Original message ----------
Zack Hunt wrote:

I filled out a profile with headquarters. They sent me the list of pastors they were going to send my profile too, but it had me listed as "Rev." so I email them back pointing out the mistake. This is what our headquarters said.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Darlene Friend
To: Zack Hunt

You received a "Rev." status when you became a district licensed minister.

From: Zack Hunt
To: Darlene Friend

To whom it may concern:

The list of pastors who would be receiving my profile has me listed as "Rev." and I am not yet ordained. Thanks,

Zack Hunt