Levi's First Reply
by Levi Hamilton
Friends,
I understand this problem. I myself began the steps toward ordination, but before I had decided whether deaconship or eldership was the path I should take, it apparently was assumed that I was on the elder track. Since then I realized, I am not a preacher by calling, and so should be on the deacon track. I asked a minister whether I should have them change it or not, and his advice was, "I wouldn't worry about it." This bothers me, especially since I know several ministers whom come out of the woodwork and claim God has called them to preach. I wondered why we have specific titles for each specific call to ministry, deacon-education, elder-preaching, deaconess-women stuff (believe me, my wife has problems with that one), etc. Then I realized perhaps its because the sermon is the focal point of the worship service.
When you attend the episcopal or catholic liturgy the homily is only about 10 minutes long. I know the pulpit is the center of Nazarene worship, but I don't hear many good preachers anymore (Or, ministers who preach Christ/Salvation/Holiness). Plus, why burden a minister who isn't as good homiletically to each week write a masterful sermon, and in some cases two sermons. (Or, like my home church just write a long one and preach till 10 after 12 then finish the rest of it in the evening service)
Anyways, that was a tangent, if a preacher is called to preaching, he shouldn't automatically recieve the highest ordination in the church, further, the system seems problematic because it distributes power through a heirarchy which seems to be in contradiction with scripture, I digress. I agree with Joseph that the language used is confusing and misleading. Although, I must confess my doubts for the future of the Naz church. I have seen some of the under table politics that goes on at the upper end of the heirarchy. I am disappointed because I feel like after ordination it simply becomes a game of politics (and sometimes before). I'd rather be busy with ministry, worrying about my parishioners rather than worrying about recongnizing if someone higher up is sitting in the pews and that I had better shake their hand. Sorry this is so long, just haven't been able to vent about this in a while! I hope this encourages discussion rather than depression or doubt. It sounds like its time for a Pow Wow with the big dogs!
Grace and Peace,
Levi
Friends,
I understand this problem. I myself began the steps toward ordination, but before I had decided whether deaconship or eldership was the path I should take, it apparently was assumed that I was on the elder track. Since then I realized, I am not a preacher by calling, and so should be on the deacon track. I asked a minister whether I should have them change it or not, and his advice was, "I wouldn't worry about it." This bothers me, especially since I know several ministers whom come out of the woodwork and claim God has called them to preach. I wondered why we have specific titles for each specific call to ministry, deacon-education, elder-preaching, deaconess-women stuff (believe me, my wife has problems with that one), etc. Then I realized perhaps its because the sermon is the focal point of the worship service.
When you attend the episcopal or catholic liturgy the homily is only about 10 minutes long. I know the pulpit is the center of Nazarene worship, but I don't hear many good preachers anymore (Or, ministers who preach Christ/Salvation/Holiness). Plus, why burden a minister who isn't as good homiletically to each week write a masterful sermon, and in some cases two sermons. (Or, like my home church just write a long one and preach till 10 after 12 then finish the rest of it in the evening service)
Anyways, that was a tangent, if a preacher is called to preaching, he shouldn't automatically recieve the highest ordination in the church, further, the system seems problematic because it distributes power through a heirarchy which seems to be in contradiction with scripture, I digress. I agree with Joseph that the language used is confusing and misleading. Although, I must confess my doubts for the future of the Naz church. I have seen some of the under table politics that goes on at the upper end of the heirarchy. I am disappointed because I feel like after ordination it simply becomes a game of politics (and sometimes before). I'd rather be busy with ministry, worrying about my parishioners rather than worrying about recongnizing if someone higher up is sitting in the pews and that I had better shake their hand. Sorry this is so long, just haven't been able to vent about this in a while! I hope this encourages discussion rather than depression or doubt. It sounds like its time for a Pow Wow with the big dogs!
Grace and Peace,
Levi
posted by Scott M. Collins | 11:52 AM
3 Comments:
Joseph's reply.
by Joseph A. Wood
"I wouldn't worry about it."
Sounds pretty sacred to me, eh? The highest order/honor in the church is something to not "worry about"? It sounds like a lack of sacramental/liturgical concern to me, and seems to invalidate the order of ordination, as you later mention! But this is just a part of the lack of sacramental concern. Our friend and brother in Christ, Brannon, has voiced his opinion as such.
"my wife has problems with that one, etc."
May God continue to bless the BOTH of you!
"Then I realized its because the sermon is the focal point of the worship service."
Very true. Why else would the pulpit be in the center of the platform? And why is it that in other traditions, the altar (as it is properly called, ulike in our church) is the focal point, in the center of the platform? Obviously it holds importance.
"I don't hear many good preachers anymore."
I do hear some good preachers, BUT these are not the ones in "politically high" positions in the church. These are the underpaid, overworked servants of God who have the gift of preaching the Word to a congregation of 100 or less. May God bless them!
"I am disappointed because I feel like after ordination it simply becomes a game of politics (and sometimes before). If I had stayed on my district in NC I would probably allready be ordained..."
Can you say, "Hello, I'm Pastor __ __, welcome to anywhereville First (or whatever it is)." Now I believe in __ __ and I believe he is gifted and sanctified for God's work through him, BUT I also think he has been swept into the political arena of the church beauracracy.
"I'd rather be busy with ministry rather than worrying about recongnizing that the DS is sitting in the pews and that I had better give him recognition."
Amen! In addition to the recognizing the DS in the pew, how about the fact that when the DS is visiting the chruch, HE IS THE ONE WHO PREACHES! How can a DS really know how effective a pastor is in the pulpit, if every time he comes to visit, he is the one preaching?! Also, in regards to your volunteer work, I say, "God bless you." Work, out of humility and desire for God and His Church will not be overlooked in the Kingdom. But looking at it beuracratically, why is being a SS teacher or Youth teacher not recognized as ministry in regards to the ordination requirements, most especially if one is on the Deacon track (one called to teaching, not preaching)? Why must it be a "paid" position, when 90% of our churches cannot afford to pay more than one minister? Is this why young ministers are associates in the cities and big churches on the districts, only to be thrown into a church of 45 just after/before ordination? Unless, of course, one is politically savvy with the higher-ups!
"It sounds like its time for a Pow Wow with the big dogs!"
Ordination vs. License Summit 2007: Manchester, England, June 2007 OR
Ordination vs. License Summit 2006: Nashville, TN, December 2006
Trust me, the worst and least-gifted homilists go over 10 minutes. The best ones know not to drag it on.
Hmmm... This post showed up as new/updated in your feed... Doing a little editing? :)
I hope this encourages you, Levi, at least about the political stuff: It's not like that everywhere. On my district (Northwest Indiana), pastors are free to be busy about the work of leading their congregations. Only once or twice in my seven years here has anything remotely "political" affected me, and even then it was probably more interpersonal than political. Our DS is wonderful. He's not intrusive and is happy to visit without being recognized or needing to preach. (I think he probably preaches plenty when helping struggling churches or churches in between pastors.)
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