Charlie's First Reply
by Charlie Green
In late reply to everyone's comments, I give my two cents (if its even worth as much). Coming from (and going back to) a small, backwoods, uneducated, and extremely a "do not" church, I find this conversation most stimulating for a person excitied about going back and telling everyone what they learned while they were away, but I feel as though they are not ready for it. The only problem with this is the "do not" attitude small churches (as I have observed) seem to have. By this I mean the church is focused mainly on what not to do to be a Christian rather than on what to do. I find Levi's examination of the order of the Articles important in that the article on sin is mentioned before the sacraments, the Church, sanctification, and even grace! No wonder our church is hell bent on legalism instead of practice. The rules tell us ho to screw up before we even know where to turn if we do. But upon further examination of the order of the articles, the Trinity, being first really offers all the answers if one has taken a Spaulding systematic. The peace, love, and unity of the Trinity offers a perfect example for the Church. So from this understanding of the articles we need to be educated in order to get a full understanding of what they mean. Is this part of the political agenda of the Nazarene demonination. Do they want a bunch of followers and a few leaders? Do they want people to question what they do? Do they want the lowly layperson to become a Pastor, DS, or heaven forbid, a GS? Of course not. Keep the people at the bottom of the heirarchy at the bottom and the people at the top, at the top.
This is one of the reasons why as a denomation we downplay education in order to promote sanctification through the Holy Spirit. Being too educated causes us to think and debug our faith instead of embrace it blindfoldedly (a word?) led by faith in the Holy Spirit. God can work in any way he sees fit. He is who he is, right? Personally, in order to really do something, I like to understand it. I really enjoyed learning about God and the Church during my course of study at Trevecca. I know it is kinda one sided in terms of viewpoints but I have friends with whom I can converse and hear other opinions, sometimes helpful, sometime confusing. But I believe as a denomination we need to teaching our doctrines (articles) to those who want to join the church or even to those who are already members of the local congregation. It is my hope that I can return home humble and eager to teach the youth and adults (but I will primarily be working with the youth) the importance of digging and finding that small nugget, possibly even spec of dust buried deep within our tradition not just as a denomination, but as a Church. And YES, Joseph, ecumenism has a large part to play in this search. I recently have had a friend who converted to Catholocism with whom I am eager to talk to on a regular basis about Christianity, the Church, and our world. Many people in my church would probably deem it a heretical call him a Christian. I look forward to continuing this email with all of you and thanks for reading my ramblings.
Prayfully yours,
Charlie
In late reply to everyone's comments, I give my two cents (if its even worth as much). Coming from (and going back to) a small, backwoods, uneducated, and extremely a "do not" church, I find this conversation most stimulating for a person excitied about going back and telling everyone what they learned while they were away, but I feel as though they are not ready for it. The only problem with this is the "do not" attitude small churches (as I have observed) seem to have. By this I mean the church is focused mainly on what not to do to be a Christian rather than on what to do. I find Levi's examination of the order of the Articles important in that the article on sin is mentioned before the sacraments, the Church, sanctification, and even grace! No wonder our church is hell bent on legalism instead of practice. The rules tell us ho to screw up before we even know where to turn if we do. But upon further examination of the order of the articles, the Trinity, being first really offers all the answers if one has taken a Spaulding systematic. The peace, love, and unity of the Trinity offers a perfect example for the Church. So from this understanding of the articles we need to be educated in order to get a full understanding of what they mean. Is this part of the political agenda of the Nazarene demonination. Do they want a bunch of followers and a few leaders? Do they want people to question what they do? Do they want the lowly layperson to become a Pastor, DS, or heaven forbid, a GS? Of course not. Keep the people at the bottom of the heirarchy at the bottom and the people at the top, at the top.
This is one of the reasons why as a denomation we downplay education in order to promote sanctification through the Holy Spirit. Being too educated causes us to think and debug our faith instead of embrace it blindfoldedly (a word?) led by faith in the Holy Spirit. God can work in any way he sees fit. He is who he is, right? Personally, in order to really do something, I like to understand it. I really enjoyed learning about God and the Church during my course of study at Trevecca. I know it is kinda one sided in terms of viewpoints but I have friends with whom I can converse and hear other opinions, sometimes helpful, sometime confusing. But I believe as a denomination we need to teaching our doctrines (articles) to those who want to join the church or even to those who are already members of the local congregation. It is my hope that I can return home humble and eager to teach the youth and adults (but I will primarily be working with the youth) the importance of digging and finding that small nugget, possibly even spec of dust buried deep within our tradition not just as a denomination, but as a Church. And YES, Joseph, ecumenism has a large part to play in this search. I recently have had a friend who converted to Catholocism with whom I am eager to talk to on a regular basis about Christianity, the Church, and our world. Many people in my church would probably deem it a heretical call him a Christian. I look forward to continuing this email with all of you and thanks for reading my ramblings.
Prayfully yours,
Charlie
posted by Scott M. Collins | 12:20 PM
1 Comments:
Joseph's reply
by Joseph A. Wood
"but I feel as though they are not ready for it."
True, but it is our task to get them ready. This will be a long process. I actually believe that true change and revival/reformation will only come to some parts of our church upon the death of some members. I'm just being honest. We have some stubborn Nazarenes!
"By this I mean the church is focused mainly on what not to do to be a Christian rather than on what to do."
I totally agree. It is amazing to see the difference in theology when it is done in a positive way. For example, how do we view the story of the Garden of Eden? Did God say, "Do not do this, this, and this."? No. He commanded the two to freely eat of every tree in the Garden but one. His emphasis was on the command to "do" something. If Adam and Eve had done the positive things that God commanded, then they wouldn't have to worry about anything. Could it be that if we do as Christ commands, we wouldn't have to worry about anything either? "Be ye Holy as your Father in Heaven is Holy". Hmm. Interesting.
"I find Levi's examination of the order of the Articles important"
How about this? How is the Apostle's Creed ordered? Is it ordered? I believe it is ordered in such a way that progressively tells the story of who we are. It begins with the Triune God and it progresses to Chirst's life, death, and resurrection, and then moves to the Holy Spirit. After that we have the church, the saints, forgiveness of sins, and the eschaton. I believe there is something to be said, systematically, about the creeds, so why not the Articles? But in agreement with Brannon, I am an advocate of seeing many things as one. No article, stands apart from any other. No particular part of theology can be understood without understanding the other parts. It is all "God talk". It is impossible to tell one about sin, without telling them about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, etc, etc, etc. All are connected, but all are one.
"Keep the people at the bottom of the heirarchy at the bottom and the people at the top, at the top."
I would hope not. But as one professor told me recently, "Life is politics." He left it at that and didnt go any farther, so I guess I have to take it with a grain of salt. Political power has historically been the bane of any institution, bringing corruption, jealously, malice, gossip, and the like (sounds like a friend of ours. Apostle Paul anyone?) We can only pray that corruption will be as far from our leaders as possible.
"as a denomation we downplay education in order to promote sanctification through the Holy Spirit."
Too much emphasis on the Spirit can lead to ignorance, lack of concern, and apathy to certain situations because "God will take care of it in His time." I believe the life of Christ is a call to action. We only work for His Glory with the help of the Spirit and the guidance of the Spirit, but we still have to work at it!
"Personally, in order to really do something, I like to understand it."
God did give us a brain and I think he expects us to use it. John Wesley, the REASONABLE ENTHUSIAST.
"I recently have had a friend who converted to Catholocism with whom I am eager to talk to on a regular basis about Christianity, the Church, and our world."
Must be a Roman Catholic! hehe Keep talking to him!!!
Submitted with concern,
Joseph
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